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Re: Argumentation (and devolution) By John 04/25/02 12:41:20 PM

Date: 04/25/02 12:41:20 PM
Name: John
Email: sueandjohn711@juno.com
Subject: Re: Argumentation (and devolution)
Stan (the debate coach), you suggest that devolving curriculum "down" to the teacher is a worthy goal, but I agree more with yourclosing note that it should be devolved to the student as early as possible (which is the lesson I take from your Macbeth experience). Reading Giroux is rather painful (actually really painful), but I think one of his points, and also Freire's and others', is that curriculum should devolve to the student. Freire asked Brazilians who he came into contact with to talk about their lives, and to find words and text to express things about their lives. In the experience of a student, how much does it matter if the teacher, the district administrators' or the state chooses the curriculum? They are all outside of the student, and thus are all to be forced on the student.

Ida Shor (Schor?) wrote a book with Paolo Freire and in that and other books describes in detail how how he taught a community college writing course; it's useful reading (more so than Giroux, at least). He describes significant resistance from the students to his approach; and that struggle became the curriculum. But lots of less high brow people have described similar things (Herndon for one; boy I laughed all the way through his books).

Personally, I have chosen to exit stage left at the end of the year, after six years of teaching middle school math. I am mostly just a boss here at school. I have tried to be a democrat; I have tried to step back and ask my students to chart their own course; but in the end because of my own failings and the fundamental school structure (just the fact that the class is labeled math is plenty restrictive) I see that I am unable to escape being a boss. My hopes for the rest of the year are that the vegetables we (90 students and I) are growing in our garden to donate to the local food bank actually do grow well enough to be donated and of use to someone, that I do as little harm to these kids as I can (or rather, so little more than I already have), and that I not be fired for refusing to be a competent boss any longer (note: I am still a boss, just an incompetent one).

Replying to:

Yes and no. The watering down of curriculum is so pervasive, I think your authors would fall upon stony ground among students and teachers. What I personally do is teach skills of logic and argumentation to both history and English students (7th Grade). When we recently read/studied Shakespeare's Macbeth, I had my students engage in a series of one on one and two on two debates. The debate topics were created by the students as well (I helped a little). You can imagine that our discussion of the literature as well as that of ethics (and politics and gender issues and feudalism and etc) was vastly richer than ANYTHING I could have dreamed up alone. To respond directly to your comment, I will peruse the authors (I remember a smackling of Giroux from college) and see what fits my curriculum.
I think a main point of Gatto's outlook is the decentralization of curriculum control. I have long felt that it should devolve down to the teacher's level. With experience and deeper understanding I am beginning to feel it actually may be best devolved to the student himself as early as possible. (Under the current system of mass forced govschooling such a thing is not practicable)
Stan (the former debate coach)
Replying to:
In this era of reproduction of meaning through propaganda and technology, exploitative globalization, neocolonial politics and ecological destruction, how can educators operate with any degree of sanity in the public education system?

How might the ideas of critical educators like Paulo Freire, Henry Giroux and bell hooks be adapted to fit the secondary language arts classroom in these dark times?

Hmmm By Stan 04/28/02 11:52:26 AM

Date: 04/28/02 11:52:26 AM
Name: Stan
Email: staneandrus@cs.com
Subject: Hmmm
I just tried to post a response but (I think) it was lost in cyber-space. Well, In essence What I tried to say is that, yep your probably right and Education will lose out ot lose you. Gardens are a great idea and anethema to govschooling. You won't get fired unless you really go off the edge. Thanks for all the book title and I have one for you, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintainence.. very cool, former collge teacher.
Stan
PS and most important, As soon as I decide that curriculum should devolve to the student-level from the word go, I must quit teaching because I am then 'In the way' I admire your guts for quitting you Incompotent Boss you, I think I'll call myself that next year. Or maybe Dr. of Limitations or Indoctrination of Minister of the Church of Reason! Thanks Thanks and Thanks!