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I must say, look out here comes the censor! By Stan 04/24/02 05:53:57 PM

Date: 04/24/02 05:53:57 PM
Name: Stan
Email: staneandrus@cs.com
Subject: I must say, look out here comes the censor!
I'm with Thoreau when eh said that he ran like hell when a man was coming to do him 'good' I don't need reform, I self-reform. Public schools don't need fixing, they need shutting. I gripe and rant here like the rest of the lot but we ARE going somewhere with this, each of us in his own way. The way we are going is back to the ancient path of arete or excellence. It is a notion familiar to Odysseus (for whom Gatto named his group). Excellence demands more than just virtue and more than just rational 'reforms'. I am the first to reject a 'reform' because I am ALWAYS suspicious of reformers motives. I even question altruism. People love to mask their desire to control others in blankets of timid morality and subtle babying. I would be sad to see this discussion of hardcore dissent become a polyanna lovefest of feelgood testimony or somebody's amen-corner of the good gospel of St. Whoever. I think (thought) ol Gatto was trying to assiduously aviod becoming a Kozol or a Gardner or a Whoever is the answer of the week club. The reason is clear, so clear in fact that it is difficult for our dumbed-down (oh no TRUTH requires truth see Aristotle on that one, I'll call is like it is thank you) generations to see. We must allow ourselves and other to develop (self develop) our full potential as individuals.
Stan

Re: I must say, look out here comes the censor! By Graham Whitaker 04/25/02 03:51:42 PM

Date: 04/25/02 03:51:42 PM
Name: Graham Whitaker
Email: grhmwit@aol.com
Subject: Re: I must say, look out here comes the censor!
Dear Stan, I see your points. I'm darn sure a fella shouldn't be afraid to speak his mind! Your ideas remind of some reviews I read recently on the "Stockdale Paradox," about Stockdale's experience as a POW in Vietnam. They were about optimism, pessimism and realism and how they influence our outlook and knowledge.

I'm not an etymologist, but your comparison of revolution and revelation is interesting, with re-volution from Latin root of re-volve and re-velation from root of re-veal.

Gray
Replying to:
I'm with Thoreau when eh said that he ran like hell when a man was coming to do him 'good' I don't need reform, I self-reform. Public schools don't need fixing, they need shutting. I gripe and rant here like the rest of the lot but we ARE going somewhere with this, each of us in his own way. The way we are going is back to the ancient path of arete or excellence. It is a notion familiar to Odysseus (for whom Gatto named his group). Excellence demands more than just virtue and more than just rational 'reforms'. I am the first to reject a 'reform' because I am ALWAYS suspicious of reformers motives. I even question altruism. People love to mask their desire to control others in blankets of timid morality and subtle babying. I would be sad to see this discussion of hardcore dissent become a polyanna lovefest of feelgood testimony or somebody's amen-corner of the good gospel of St. Whoever. I think (thought) ol Gatto was trying to assiduously aviod becoming a Kozol or a Gardner or a Whoever is the answer of the week club. The reason is clear, so clear in fact that it is difficult for our dumbed-down (oh no TRUTH requires truth see Aristotle on that one, I'll call is like it is thank you) generations to see. We must allow ourselves and other to develop (self develop) our full potential as individuals.
Stan

Re: I must say, look out here comes the censor! By Carlotta 04/25/02 12:08:11 AM

Date: 04/25/02 12:08:11 AM
Name: Carlotta
Email: Veritati@aol.com
Subject: Re: I must say, look out here comes the censor!
(Sorry, Hilda. Borrowing that adorable smiley you used!)

Dear Stan,

Oh dear! Does Odysseus have a censor on board, as it were? People are free to consider or dismiss suggestions. A censor, on the other hand, would not post suggestions. Am I missing a bit of Aristotelian logic that would lead me from your subject line to the gist of your letter?

From your skeptical tone, I gather that you find my post less than inspiring or edifying. I wholeheartedly support your right to express vehement disagreement with my views. However, it was not John Taylor Gatto who wrote or posted my letter. It was I. Clearly, it would be erroneous to attribute my speech or opinions to Gatto or the Odysseus Group.

But isn't it lovely that the Odysseus Group welcomes each of us to post his or her own views, even if "hardcore dissenters" dissent in different ways, on different topics, and agree to disagree? To each his own, as the saying goes.

While the Odysseus Group is called Group, aren't we fortunate that it doesn't promote groupthink?

Carlotta

Replying to:
I'm with Thoreau when eh said that he ran like hell when a man was coming to do him 'good' I don't need reform, I self-reform. Public schools don't need fixing, they need shutting. I gripe and rant here like the rest of the lot but we ARE going somewhere with this, each of us in his own way. The way we are going is back to the ancient path of arete or excellence. It is a notion familiar to Odysseus (for whom Gatto named his group). Excellence demands more than just virtue and more than just rational 'reforms'. I am the first to reject a 'reform' because I am ALWAYS suspicious of reformers motives. I even question altruism. People love to mask their desire to control others in blankets of timid morality and subtle babying. I would be sad to see this discussion of hardcore dissent become a polyanna lovefest of feelgood testimony or somebody's amen-corner of the good gospel of St. Whoever. I think (thought) ol Gatto was trying to assiduously aviod becoming a Kozol or a Gardner or a Whoever is the answer of the week club. The reason is clear, so clear in fact that it is difficult for our dumbed-down (oh no TRUTH requires truth see Aristotle on that one, I'll call is like it is thank you) generations to see. We must allow ourselves and other to develop (self develop) our full potential as individuals.
Stan

Love and Peace to my Fellow Travelers By Stan 04/25/02 05:15:44 PM

Date: 04/25/02 05:15:44 PM
Name: Stan
Email: staneandrus@cs.com
Subject: Love and Peace to my Fellow Travelers
Carlotta, I'm easily riled. I must also apologize for my rotten spelling and such, I do get carried away whilst venting. I'm not at all opposed to the spirit of your post. My comments regarding this board stem from my understanding of ol Gatto(just out of courtesy as our host not the guy producing material here). Geez I hope I don't sound like I'm sitting around trying to understand 'the deeper message of Gatto'. I think most of us really *feel* it or *sense* it because his dissent is something most of us (in public education) have not put to words. But I think of Martin Luther (the German) and his 95 Theses. These were 'gripes' and valid gripes at that. When he posted his 'gripes' on the cathedral door, he didn't offer 95 Reform Solutions or anything of the sort. Later, he did develop a system of belief that some chose to follow and some did not. The point is that his DISSENT made people think, not his Positive Great Rah-Rah New Program. I suppose that its the yet-another-new-program thing that I'm against. I've just seen so much good old fashioned dissent here, I'd hate to see it dampened. You know, its raw and visceral and I love it. I think it should flow and not be staunched till its all out. The thing that is needed for real change, fundamental change is a withdrawal of support for the massive govschool apparatus. Tinkering with 'this set of scores' or 'that type of school' may bring temporary changes but not fundamental ones.
My logic (and poor at that) is simply that friendly censorship and self-censorship is till censorship. Invoking poor Aristotle to 'call a spade a spade'(or a suggested limiting redirection a censor!) isn't necessary, it just sounded cool so I did it ANd furthermore I do believe that neither you (from the tone of *your* posts) nor I would ever buy into the hateful groupthink mentality.
Stan
PS By way of admission, I just re-read Walden (1st time since college) and am ready to wander off out of my classroom and into the woods for a break from selling er teaching English and history to poor innocent 7th graders. Peace.