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Re: Re: Parents vs. "Experts" By Jeanine 04/25/02 05:45:08 AM

Date: 04/25/02 05:45:08 AM
Name: Jeanine
Email: jeanine1011@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: Re: Parents vs. "Experts"
Far from helping students develop into mature, self reliant, self- motivated individuals, schools seem to do everything they can to keep youngsters in a state of chronic, almost infantile, dependency. The pervasive atmosphere of distrust, together with rules covering the most minute aspects of existence, teach students every day they are not people of worth, and certainly not individuals capable of regulating their own behavior.~chas.e.silberman in crisis in the classroom

so called "experts" focus on this...
1} Ignorance- I dont know what I am doing;I'm not smart enough; what if I dont cover everything the school system wants me to cover?;I never understood math, can learning really be different than what I remember?

2} greed- I want my child to be the best; I want my child to win a nobel prize; I want my child to make a lot of money; I want; I want; I want. {the art of eduaction linda dobson}

3} fear- what we dont know causes fear, schools teach to not trust yourself, just sit back and wait for someone better trained, just sit back and wait for an expert to tell you what to do. I am not saying that there aren't people who know more than us, that is reality, everyone has their gifts and we should seek out people who can genuinely help us, however we should also instill in our children that they are very well capable of finding information on their own and not to just instinctively trust an "expert". challenge themselves and trust themselves to grow academically and spiritually. To not just give up or give in by thinking oh this person just knows more than me and always will, why should I bother. do you see what I am saying?

Replying to:

As you will probbaly be aware Scotland is NOT England. Here we have a separate legals sytem based upon a different framework also a different education system as well as our own banks (We share the same unit of currency as england. And probably you found in the news that now Scotland has its own parliament.

When I sat experts I mean in their field of study. As in would your feel capable of explaining to your child about quantum physics ? Something I could whereas If you asked me to play a note on any instrument I would be stumped. I do not profess to know everything about anything but in my specialist subject I am fairly well versed and enthusiastic.

Have your headr of the IRA or the UDA ? Organisations renound for their Christianity who have found notoriety in recent years. The activities of churches over the centuries have also been questionable.

As for what you teach your children thats up to you as long as your child turns out to be a worthwhile member of your society then its fine by me and probably fine by your government. However your constitution states your rights but what are your responsibilities ? Do you have your own constitution which outlines these ?

As for compromising your religion. If it was such a great belief system it should withstand the onslaught. Socialism is practised in many countries, still communism hasn't been wiped out by the US capitalist machine yet, surely your child should be exposed to these alternatives so that they can exercise their democratic right to CHOOSE with all the facts at their fingertips. Something that an insular lifestyle removes from you let alone makes you compromise.

Maybe if more like you took the bull by the horns and saved your nations education system by volunteering to be a warm body at the fornt of a classroom then two birds with one stone could be killed. Then high morality can permeate throughout the system and it will improve. Maybe you could induce/encourage more into your faith that way too.
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Mr. Cavin: Talk about extrapolation! I suppose you think you are the proper person to teach other people's children what "the facts" are? Everybody else is ignorant, only the state-certified bureaucrat has The Truth. This is the crux of the matter in the school system, and it can never be evaded: the parents are fools, only the "experts" really know what is best for other people's children.

To equate Christians with Middle Eastern suicide bombers is the height of illogical (you'll pardon the expression) thinking. You have proven my point. Christianity is a real threat to those who seek to control everybody else.

For your information: my husband holds Master's degrees in Mechanical Engineering and Business Administration. He is fluent in Polish and English, and has designed computer systems all over Europe, Canada, and the U.S. (spent a lot of time in Scotland, in fact). I have a Master's degree in music (voice and piano), am fluent in Italian and English, and can get by in French and German. I have also lived and worked in much of Europe. Amazingly, we are also Christians, and have never engaged in any act of violence or delusion. We believe the Scriptures are part of the foundation of Western civilization and morality, and that any educated person needs to know them. Who are YOU to tell me what I may teach my child?! Do we need your permission to teach him Polish and Italian too?

TO REPEAT: the public schools teach "belief systems" every day, whether you wish to call them religions or not. Those belief systems include: Communism, Socialism, Hedonism, New Ageism, Psychobabble, Evolutionary Theory, Multiculturalism, etc. When the schools push this stuff on our families, they are compromising our freedom of religion. That's guaranteed by our Constitution (a document, by the way, that still does not exist in England). You really seem to be completely ignorant of what goes on in the American public schools. And you don't seem to have read John Taylor Gatto's writings at all!

As far as background checks for teachers: not a week goes by in the USA that we don't read about teachers and paraprofessionals (women, as well as men) who have engaged in various forms of abuse (sexual, physical, and others) of the children in their care. There is a teacher shortage throughout America, and much of the time any warm body is permitted to stand at the head of a classroom. Even if those warm bodies had to endure a psychological mind probe, I don't have much confidence in that anyway. I encourage you to explore this web site: http://www.edweek.org to get some idea of what America's school system is going through (there is also international news there).

One final question, sir: do you have any children of your own? Or are you coming at this entirely from the Realm of the Theoretical?
Replying to:

I find such desire to brainwash children into religion quite difficult to take. Its exaactly this sort of brainwashing whcih goes on in the middle east by both sides in the conflict there. An article about a 15 year old girl who has a poster of one of these suicide bombers because this is the was of life in their religion made me sad. The girl in the article pledged that she would do as her idol and become a suicide bomber in order to get her culture and nationality recognised. She was not allowed by the religious leaders to do so and so went to an Israeli checkpoint baring a knife and was promptly shot dead by the soldiers. Waste of indoctrinated life if you ask me.

You probably think, Martha, that its wouldnt happen here or there where you are but just look at Waco and all those other religious groups which preach allegiance to Jesus and the Lord etc the proceed to do crazy things. Indoctrination of young minds is wrong whether it is done by Christians, Muslims, Jews, teachers or parents. None of them has proof that they are right beyond all doubt. No one will ever find out either.

KNowledge of the facts should be taught to young people and choices once informed should be made. I hate religious bigotry and dont believe that it should be allowed to be foisted on shildren. Give them knowledge not faith let them decide that when they are ready and can understand.
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"Choose you this day whom ye will serve. But as for me and my house, we will follow the Lord." Joshua 24:15.

Harriette, I hear you talking! They push various religions (at the very least, they are "belief systems") all the time in our public schools, though they never refer to them as such. And any New Age, cock-a-mamie gibberish is acceptable -- but don't ever mention Christ. There is none of the much-touted "tolerance" for Him at all. Amazing how He presents as great a threat to modern Pharisees as He did so long ago. The ultimate freedom-fighter: no wonder they dare not speak His name in any public school!

The modern belief system that drove us out was the Cult of Psychobabble. The tiniest tots are subjected to all sorts of psychological testing (like little laboratory rats in a giant social experiment), but have you noticed -- the teachers NEVER have to submit to having their psyches probed?

Replying to:

I have only observed a small percentage of youth in our geographical region of the U.S. that is seeing through the "money/trophy"-ism's of our western culture. In fact, there is a mass-marketed media campaign in pursuit of those would be youth who "would be" the ones to see through it - and yet fall prey to the "anti" trophy lifestyle campaign, feeding that money monster as well. It seems there is no end to the "spin" on money.

Here in the U.S., I truly believe that many teachers begin their careers wanting to make a difference - but lose those ideologies quickly in the public school system of the U.S. Every week there are headlines somewhere highlighting an instructor, coach or other educational faculty member that is under scrutiny or investigation for an alleged inpropriety and I can easily see how teachers can be victimized as easily as some students with the public school machine we have here in the U.S.

As far as your perspective on whether or not "ideologies" should or should not be dictated in public schools and how homeschoolers may find this difficult: You may be surprised to know that while the founders of this country pursued life in the colonies and ultimately this free country - it was under the auspices of certain freedoms - one being "religion". Having said that, because "public school" is for everyone - common sense would dictate that religion should not be a part of government sponsored, academic education that is for any and "all the people" (who may or may not have the same religious beliefs).

Guess again: Christianity is not taught in public school; but let me put anyone on notice: While the public schools in our geographic area are not permitted to even use the words or phrases: "Christmas", "Christmas Break", "Easter", "Jesus", "God" (except in the Pledge of Allegience and in a mid-western state - there is a proposal to re-word the Pledge or not say it!!), teachers and faculty are not allowed to wear "Christmas attire" because it may offend another child or children of different religious beliefs, ......... the list goes on and on. However, my sons were "required" to participate in a Kwanza celebration; "required" to make Hannukah game pieces and light a Menorah during the week+ celebration, and when children enter middle and high school, the school officials have the authority to counsel children on abortion and provide free contraceptives to prevent unwanted pregnancies and to promote safe-sex (as if there is such a concept).

Who is dictating ideologies? Who was concerned about offending me and other parents who do not believe in these celebrations or lifestyle choices?

Today, I am a homeschooling parent. But when our children were enrolled in government schools, I spent every opportunity available (and I'm not talking PTA and cupcakes either) to work as a volunteer in the public school my sons attended in support of their teachers in the classroom every week as well as worked with the adminstrators of the school. I taught an "in school" science field trip to every class (K-5th); I attended and participated in meetings with our State govenor over policy matters as well as in the local school cluster promoting the "good things" about public school. After three long and frustrating years of public school experience that had little to do with my Christian faith not being taught in the school curriculum but EVERYTHING to do with the reality that most of what goes on in public schools in the U.S. has very little to do with academics, we withdrew our children and began homeschooling.
Replying to:

Here, here

Agree completely with your sentiments about people being obsessed with career and the pursuit of wealth.
Although I think that many of todays kids are seeing through it now for what it really is.

I think for some the overexposure has made them blase about the circumstances and perhaps hardened against such influence.

The point made about public schools and the best interests... I take issue with though. As for schools here teachers and managers have their hands tied so far up their back the on the basis of simple dislike of a teacher, a pupil can have disasterous effects on their career. An allegation of improper condct can be fatal (in some cases literally).
I cannot speak for schools in US but here in UK there isnt a teacher I know who doesn not want the best for their charges. I would expect as professionals my US counterparts would be of the same opinion. And since we cannot (read SHOULD not) dictate our ideologies upon the pupils (something perhaps homeschoolers may find difficult), simple rights and wrongs have to be instructed and adhered to. We do our best but cant be held responsible for all societies wrongs.

Parents AND teachers should try to work together for the benefit of all.
Vic

PS have any homeschooling parents spent time in a public school with their and others children in a class taught by someone else ? Reason I ask is that recently I had a parent request this of me. Comments and experiences would be appreciated
Replying to:

I definitely can relate to the feelings of "losing your children" and I felt that way for the short amount of time my 2 children attended public school. I am thankful that I awoke from the society-induced coma and re-claimed my children.

As far as the school/violence, I agree that we cannot blame just television; however, my opinion (for what it's worth) is that I see a combined influence of social trend that comes from the public school arena (as you laid out in your post) as well as the mass attack from television and other modes of media.

The majority of children in the U.S. today grow up w/parents obsessed with working (career taking priority over parenting) for "money" to acquire the "things" - the trophies that make us acceptable - How do we know what is acceptable? We see it on T.V., on and in magazines, in the movies, on the school playground. I agree that the public school arena has the greatest influence today, because the children who attend public school, basically live there and visit at home.........and, the public school, while it claims to have the best interests of children and moral/character value (yuk!!!!!!!) - does little in peer group respect and discipline - because they might upset "Johnny" (the bully), etc., etc. and are instructed by their government overseers to do otherwise.

Let me back up a minute on the "career" issue: I don't mean to offend anyone pursuing a career: However, I believe many (especially homeschoolers) will agree that we've learned (I hope) as a society that "you CAN'T have it all" - when you try to do it all - something suffers and has to give, and in the U.S., primarily, that would be the children.

I am always surprised when so many people claim to be so intelligent, but they fail to realize certain immediate responsibilities when we have an entire lifetime to pursue interests, careers and so forth. What is everyone in such a hurry about?

For a society that was founded by ancestors seeking "freedom" - it has become a society in bondage to money and its acquisitions.
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Once again the newspapers in my city are full of reports on conclusive evidence that watching violence in movies and on television are making our children and young people violent and aggresive. I have been reading reports like this for years as a fairly disinterested observer but it struck me finally last week - and I am sure that many of you have also come to this conclusion - that it is the schools that cause aggression and violence in our children, television has nothing to do with it. A whole happy person can watch 45 episodes of Terminator and not feel the slighest twendancy to go out and beat up someone.

I am a home-educator of 15 years, a home-ed support group co-ordinator and operate an info line for people wishing to talk about home-ed. I had a particulary sad week last week - parents in tears talking about suicidal, depressed teens and another with a small child of 6 who since starting school had gone from being a delightful person to being so aggressive she couldn't control him. She brought him to our support group that same day so she could talk some more and I was so saddened to see them together.Fighting back tears she was telling us of her beautful family (she had two older children with her) before the ravages of school and the effects were there for all of us to see.A child so out of control that no-one could get his attention.Her other two children had their faces to the wall and would not speak to anyone. The stories she told us of the bullying, physical and mental abuse they had suffered (they had come from a normal state run school) shocked us all into silence. She has now removed them from school and is trying to get her family back - I feel she has a long journey ahead of her.

I have talked to hundreds of parents over the years all remark on how aggressive their children become once they start school. These small children have to cope with being torn from their familes,torn from their siblings in the school yard, have to cope with the brutal peer pressure(ten time worse if they wear glsses, have curly hair, are too tall, too short etc etc),lose every freedom of they have ever had they finally give in to the control of the institution - no wonder they are violent when they come home. Televison becomes an escape for them and the violence they see there just accentuates how they feel.

I would be interested in anyone elses thoughts on this subject. I think we have to put the blame where it really lies and stop using televison as the scapegoat.Parents can easily turn off the T.V. but unfortunately they can't turn off school as well....

Lyn